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Friday Night- Women Preachers (Listen To Debate)
Marge Ramona, the women preacher of Bethel Metropolitan Community Church, began
the night off by affirming that it is not wrong for women to be in ministry. She started to
prove her case by going to the Old Testament using examples of women who were
supposedly involved in leadership position.
The first person she used was Miriam in Numbers 12. She pointed out how Miriam was
a women who spoke out and did not keep silence. To no avail this point was quickly
destroyed. Marge failed to realize that not only does this verse not have anything to do
with preaching but also when Miriam spoke out, God struck her with leprosy because of
her speaking out against God's appointed leader, Moses (Numbers 12:10).
Next, she used Deborah (Judges 4) as an example to prove that women can preach.
Her argument was that Bark was to afraid and it took Deborah to lead God's army. Here
again she is mistaken. Once again she failed to see that this context has nothing to do
with women preachers. Furthermore, Deborah did not lead the army. She only went
with Barak. Judges 4:10 says, "And Bark called Zebulen and Nathalie to Cedes; he
went up with ten thousand men under his command, and Deborah went up with him."
I suppose the most relevant verses that she used to try to prove her position came from
Acts 2:17-18: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out
of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young
men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and
on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy."
Her main point from this passage was that God promised to pour out His Spirit on the
men as well as the women and that both would prophesy. I agree with her here. Anyone
that can read, can clearly see thats exactly what the verse says. The Bible does not
condemn women preaching in the sense of them teaching. As a matter of fact, Phillip
the Evangelist had four daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:8-9). However, it is not a
question of whether or not a women can preach in the sense of them teaching but it is
about can she teach in the capacity that the Bible condemns and the Bible condemns a
women teaching "Over a Man" (1 Tim. 2:11-12).
Well, like all women preachers I know, Marge did not say a lot about these verses.
Rather, she quoted them one time and played them by saying "We only have two
verses that say this" as if the amount of times a commandment is mentioned
determines the force of its application.
Pat (church of Christ) pointed out to her very clearly the role of women in the church
and quoted 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 to prove his point. Pat was
so affective in his delivery in showing that women can't teach over men that he backed
Marge in a corner. Having nowhere to run, Marge finally showed her true position and
that is one of a lack of respect for the Bible.
She made the statement that the Bible is "Not the Word of God" but "Contains the Word
of God." Also, she went on to say that even though Paul said that about women, "Jesus
Marge Ramona, the women preacher of Bethel Metropolitan Community Church, began
the night off by affirming that it is not wrong for women to be in ministry. She started to
prove her case by going to the Old Testament using examples of women who were
supposedly involved in leadership position.
The first person she used was Miriam in Numbers 12. She pointed out how Miriam was
a women who spoke out and did not keep silence. To no avail this point was quickly
destroyed. Marge failed to realize that not only does this verse not have anything to do
with preaching but also when Miriam spoke out, God struck her with leprosy because of
her speaking out against God's appointed leader, Moses (Numbers 12:10).
Next, she used Deborah (Judges 4) as an example to prove that women can preach.
Her argument was that Bark was to afraid and it took Deborah to lead God's army. Here
again she is mistaken. Once again she failed to see that this context has nothing to do
with women preachers. Furthermore, Deborah did not lead the army. She only went
with Barak. Judges 4:10 says, "And Bark called Zebulen and Nathalie to Cedes; he
went up with ten thousand men under his command, and Deborah went up with him."
I suppose the most relevant verses that she used to try to prove her position came from
Acts 2:17-18: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out
of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young
men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and
on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy."
Her main point from this passage was that God promised to pour out His Spirit on the
men as well as the women and that both would prophesy. I agree with her here. Anyone
that can read, can clearly see thats exactly what the verse says. The Bible does not
condemn women preaching in the sense of them teaching. As a matter of fact, Phillip
the Evangelist had four daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:8-9). However, it is not a
question of whether or not a women can preach in the sense of them teaching but it is
about can she teach in the capacity that the Bible condemns and the Bible condemns a
women teaching "Over a Man" (1 Tim. 2:11-12).
Well, like all women preachers I know, Marge did not say a lot about these verses.
Rather, she quoted them one time and played them by saying "We only have two
verses that say this" as if the amount of times a commandment is mentioned
determines the force of its application.
Pat (church of Christ) pointed out to her very clearly the role of women in the church
and quoted 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 to prove his point. Pat was
so affective in his delivery in showing that women can't teach over men that he backed
Marge in a corner. Having nowhere to run, Marge finally showed her true position and
that is one of a lack of respect for the Bible.
She made the statement that the Bible is "Not the Word of God" but "Contains the Word
of God." Also, she went on to say that even though Paul said that about women, "Jesus
My Assessment of the Debate by Tony Edwards
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did not say it." Marge disregarded the plain teachings of Jesus in John 14:26 and 16:13, where Jesus promised that
the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth. In 1 Corinthians 2:10, Paul tells us where he received his words:
"God has revealed them to us through His Spirit." Also, in 1 Corinthians 14:37, after condemning the actions of those
women, Paul affirmed, "the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."
Over all the first night was very interesting but it proved one thing true and that is people who practice things that are
not in the Bible will eventually show their lack of respect for God's word in the end.
Saturday Night- Homosexuality (Listen To Debate)
By far this is the most interesting discussion that I have ever had the opportunity to witness.
Pat began this night by affirming that the Bible condemns homosexuality. He used a host of Scriptures to prove his
point. He started from the Old Testament showing that homosexuality was condemned (Gen. 18:20; 19:1-29; Lev.
18:22-23; 20:13-14). After pressing this point, he moved to the New Testament to show that this same condemnation
had not changed. From Romans 1:26-27, Pat explained that God condemned those who had changed the natural use
of their bodies to do things that were against nature. Pat showed that the natural use of the human body is designed
for procreation between men and women. The homosexual and the lesbian lifestyles are against this natural process,
thus against nature.
Marge responded to this by saying that the only reasons that homosexuals were condemned in Romans 1:26-27 is
because they were doing this in worship to idols. Evidently Marge did not notice the other sins mentioned in the same
context, one of which is fornication.
Pat pointed out that if homosexuality is acceptable as long as it is not used in idol worship, then so is fornication and
every other sin mentioned in Romans 1. I even had the privilege of asking a question at the end. I asked, "Could I
cheat on my wife as long as I don't do if in worship to an idol?"
Marge's response was ''No." She said that no one should be unfaithful to their spouse or partner. It's amazing that the
same Bible she says is "not the word of God" she uses it to try to prove all of the points she wants to make. This may
explain why she said on the first night that she tells her members to "buy a Bible that does not condemn them." Wow!
She stated that she would not be held down by the "old way of interpreting the Bible." Furthermore, when Pat had
finished quoting all of the passages that condemn homosexuality, Marge said, "We have been hit with these verses for
a long time and I'm tired of hearing them." Now, honestly, what can you do when a person flatly rejects the Bible and
only excepts those things that do not condemn them. Many other things were said in this debate but I think what's
been said suffices my point. Bethel Metropolitan Community "Church" and Marge Ragona can care less about what
the Lord has to say.
She also brought up about people being born gay. To see the real truth on this matter read my article
"Homosexuality: Gene or Choice?"
This debate was eye opening and sad. It was eye opening in that I was able to see first hand why our society is willing
to except this wicked behaver. It is because our society, like Marge and those who follow, have no respect for God and
His word. It was sad in that those who follow this ungodly teaching will not see heaven unless they repent. The Bible
says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10,
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
The wonderful thing about God though, is that He is merciful to those that change. Whether thief, murderer,
homosexual, adulterer, drunk, liar, or coveter, God can forgive all if they stop these sins. Paul said of those in the
church at Corinth that "such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11).
Remember, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not
perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This verse expresses God's love for all mankind regardless of what they
have done. However, Jesus gives the equation for us showing our love toward God:
"If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15).
If we really love God as we say, then it will show in our obedience to Him. Only then will he forgive us. "If my people,
which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;
then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land" (2 Chron. 7:14).
the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth. In 1 Corinthians 2:10, Paul tells us where he received his words:
"God has revealed them to us through His Spirit." Also, in 1 Corinthians 14:37, after condemning the actions of those
women, Paul affirmed, "the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."
Over all the first night was very interesting but it proved one thing true and that is people who practice things that are
not in the Bible will eventually show their lack of respect for God's word in the end.
Saturday Night- Homosexuality (Listen To Debate)
By far this is the most interesting discussion that I have ever had the opportunity to witness.
Pat began this night by affirming that the Bible condemns homosexuality. He used a host of Scriptures to prove his
point. He started from the Old Testament showing that homosexuality was condemned (Gen. 18:20; 19:1-29; Lev.
18:22-23; 20:13-14). After pressing this point, he moved to the New Testament to show that this same condemnation
had not changed. From Romans 1:26-27, Pat explained that God condemned those who had changed the natural use
of their bodies to do things that were against nature. Pat showed that the natural use of the human body is designed
for procreation between men and women. The homosexual and the lesbian lifestyles are against this natural process,
thus against nature.
Marge responded to this by saying that the only reasons that homosexuals were condemned in Romans 1:26-27 is
because they were doing this in worship to idols. Evidently Marge did not notice the other sins mentioned in the same
context, one of which is fornication.
Pat pointed out that if homosexuality is acceptable as long as it is not used in idol worship, then so is fornication and
every other sin mentioned in Romans 1. I even had the privilege of asking a question at the end. I asked, "Could I
cheat on my wife as long as I don't do if in worship to an idol?"
Marge's response was ''No." She said that no one should be unfaithful to their spouse or partner. It's amazing that the
same Bible she says is "not the word of God" she uses it to try to prove all of the points she wants to make. This may
explain why she said on the first night that she tells her members to "buy a Bible that does not condemn them." Wow!
She stated that she would not be held down by the "old way of interpreting the Bible." Furthermore, when Pat had
finished quoting all of the passages that condemn homosexuality, Marge said, "We have been hit with these verses for
a long time and I'm tired of hearing them." Now, honestly, what can you do when a person flatly rejects the Bible and
only excepts those things that do not condemn them. Many other things were said in this debate but I think what's
been said suffices my point. Bethel Metropolitan Community "Church" and Marge Ragona can care less about what
the Lord has to say.
She also brought up about people being born gay. To see the real truth on this matter read my article
"Homosexuality: Gene or Choice?"
This debate was eye opening and sad. It was eye opening in that I was able to see first hand why our society is willing
to except this wicked behaver. It is because our society, like Marge and those who follow, have no respect for God and
His word. It was sad in that those who follow this ungodly teaching will not see heaven unless they repent. The Bible
says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10,
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
The wonderful thing about God though, is that He is merciful to those that change. Whether thief, murderer,
homosexual, adulterer, drunk, liar, or coveter, God can forgive all if they stop these sins. Paul said of those in the
church at Corinth that "such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11).
Remember, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not
perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This verse expresses God's love for all mankind regardless of what they
have done. However, Jesus gives the equation for us showing our love toward God:
"If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15).
If we really love God as we say, then it will show in our obedience to Him. Only then will he forgive us. "If my people,
which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;
then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land" (2 Chron. 7:14).
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